This entry will be updated regularly, because it may be the only comprehensive documentation of the Intifada-like elements of the French rioting.
Note: This contrarian thesis, articulated first in a comprehsive way here first, has now begun to be expressed throughout the conservative media. For example Jack Kelly's opinion piece appears to have been written using this entry (see below).
The New York Times deserves singling out for its sweeping blindness: "the violence in France has not taken on religious overtones". The Washington Post makes a nearly identical assertion: "Islamic ideology and leaders play no role in the disturbances, and many of those participating are not Muslim."
Here, then, is the refutation culled from many sources, including one from the Times article that denies any Islamic overtones whatsoever. The biggest smoking gun is actually from the same Washington Post that denied any connection, just eight days prior to the insurrection (see the first "Evidence" article below). Note that most of the items below are not headlines and that Islam defines "religion" in much more political terms than other faiths.
(Dec. 15) al-Qaeda-Linked Arsenal Uncovered in Paris Riots' Source "Large quantities of military weapons and explosives" were uncovered, including assault rifles, dynamite and TNT. Investigators believe that Islamic terrorists were financed by criminal gang activity, including a confessed armed robbery.
French Jews Fleeing Wave of Muslim Anti-Semitism French immigration to Canada up 700% in 4 years. Dozens of Jewish buildings firebombed, covered in anti-Semitic graffiti and sprayed with bullets. Those remaining are bomb-proofing, bullet-proofing and hiding identities while Chirac says "There is no anti-Semitism in France"
Hizbut Tehrir Behind French Intifada All indicators point to the involvement of...the London-based Hizbut Tehrir (HT) in the violence by sections of angry Muslim youth....With the help of the sleeper cells, which the HT has already established in Paris and other parts of France for some months, they drew up plans for keeping the violence sustained in order to further radicalise and mobilise the youth....For this purpose, they exploited the already prevalent anger in the Muslim community of France....Lashkar-e-Toiba (LET) in Pakistan has instructed its cells in France to assist the HT clandestinely as best as they can. Similarly, the Jamat-ul-Furqa (JUF)...has also asked its followers to assist the HT
Non-Muslims Beaten to Death To my critics in France claiming the term Intifada is only used by uninformed foreign journalists-the author is a local editor of a Paris-based journal.
Newsweek Breaks Mainstream News Media Taboo on Term "Intifada" In hundreds of French housing projects and ghettos populated by mostly Muslim Arab and African immigrants and their French children and grandchildren, "normal" has been for years a sort of chronic intifada, even if it was invisible to most of France and the rest of the world. According to research conducted by the government's domestic-intelligence network, the Renseignements Generaux, French police would not venture without major reinforcements into some 150 "no-go zones" around the country?and that was before the recent wave of riots began on Oct. 27.
Details on the 40,000 French Al-Qaeda Recruits (From Debka Feb. 2004-usual caveats about their unreliability apply-some amazing scoops/some major gaffes) al Qaeda...organizing them in military-style units. They meet regularly for training in the use of weapons and explosives, combat tactics and indoctrination and are controlled from local and district command centers under the organization?s national French command....Today, French counter-terror sources are willing to admit...that those clandestine terrorist cells may well be at the bottom of the current riots. They note the history of the Palestinian uprising, which kicked off in 1987 with stones and petrol bombs...covert nucleus of trained and indoctrinated Islamic terrorists al Qaeda buried inside Europe is being turned against the continent, starting in France
Journalist: "It may well be that the motive for the rioting was nothing more than an inchoate grievance allied to youthful exuberance and a penchant for bad behaviour, but it was Islam which gave it an identity and also its retrospective raison d'?tre"
France Says Extremists Are Enlisting Its Citizens. Police Assert Some Trained in Mideast Could Attack Paris (Oct. 19-8 days prior to riots) One French official said the extremists were using a virtual "underground railroad" through Syria to spirit European and Middle Eastern citizens into and out of Iraq....French citizens had undergone terrorist training at camps in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon....French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy called the terror risk for Paris "very high"...."Iraq is a live-fire training ground in urban terrorism, and that's exactly what we fear"...."What the war in Iraq has done is radicalize these people and make some of them prepared to support terrorism. Iraq is a great recruiting sergeant"....Paris an obvious target...."What worries me the most is the behavior of GSPC, which has described France as their number one target"....making an attack on France "inevitable."
Jack Kelly: Liberal Illusions in Flames Kelly's column appears to have been created almost exclusively from this IRIS post: he used both of the media bias quotes, 2 of the 3 Islamist Web site quotes, and 4 of the pieces of evidence. To which I say: "thank you."
Wake Up, Europe, You've a War on Your Hands, by Mark Steyn "For half a decade, French Arabs have been carrying on a low-level intifada against synagogues, kosher butchers, Jewish schools, etc. The concern of the political class has been to prevent the spread of these attacks to targets of more, ah, general interest."
Islamist Threat in France, by Tony Blankley Blankley predicted this violence because he has a clear understanding of the problem
Islamist Web Sites: Islamist Web Site #1: "The cops are petrified of us, everything must burn, starting Monday, the operation ?Midnight Sun? starts, tell everyone else, rendezvous for Momo and Abdul in Zone 4 ... jihad Islamia Allah Akhbar."
Islamist Web Site #2: "Oh, you Muslim people in Europe, walk with and like your brothers in Paris and learn that these people are dogs"
Islamist Web Site #3: "You don?t really think that we?re going to stop now? Are you stupid? It will continue, non-stop. We aren?t going to let up. The French won?t do anything and soon, we will be in the majority here."
Anyone want to take bets on when the violence will finally end in France? We're on the 12 consecutive night of rioting. And the usual suspects are wondering if Bush is to blame for the riots in France...
Weblog: A Blog For All Tracked: Nov 08, 17:46
New Posts on French Intifada (Paris Riots)
New material on the French Intifada will continue to be posted in:
Evidence the "Paris Riots" Are Actually the "French Intifada" (possibly the only colelction of its type available), and
Noteworthy News-French Intifada (Paris Riots)
Weblog: IRIS Blog Tracked: Nov 08, 18:07
Learn the truth about the Paris Riots
There’s a page that’s constantly being updated with the latest info. It’s over here: Evidence the “Paris Riots” Are Actually the “French Intifada” – IRIS Blog. Check back often & bookmark it and y...
Weblog: Eric's Boredom Revealed Tracked: Nov 08, 19:26
Evidence the "Paris Riots" Are Actually the "French Intifada"
This entry will be updated regularly, because it may be the only resource of its kind available.
The New York Times deserves singling out for its sweeping blindness: "the violence in France has not taken on religious overtones". Here, then, is the refu
Weblog: IRIS Blog Tracked: Nov 09, 17:45
A Must-Read Analysis of the French Intifada (Paris Riots)
My controversial documentation of the Intifada-like elements of the French rioting has generated kind compliments such as these:
Thanks so much for this post. It's by far the most comprehensive list I've found of this madness.
This is a great collecti
Weblog: IRIS Blog Tracked: Nov 09, 18:51
A Must-Read Analysis of the French Intifada (Paris Riots)
My controversial documentation of the Intifada-like elements of the French rioting has generated kind compliments such as these:
Thanks so much for this post. It's by far the most comprehensive list I've found of this madness.
This is a great collecti
Weblog: IRIS Blog Tracked: Nov 09, 18:51
What's At Stake in the French Riots?
I am skeptical that Messrs. de Vellepin, Pipes, and Blankley really know what is at stake here. We should complicate our reading of the French riots as something more than demands for redistributionist policies on the one hand, and an ethno-religious...
Weblog: The Dartmouth Observer Tracked: Nov 09, 20:21
Holy load of crap. We have some entries this week for the Masquerade folks. Damn, I should have got started on this earlier, at this rate I’ll be here all night. Eh, what else do I have to do, right? ‘Cept I have me some new finger nails, ...
Weblog: The Pink Flamingo Bar Grill Tracked: Nov 13, 00:45
CARNIVAL OF THE CLUELESS #21
Who will wear the “Cluebat of the Week” laurels?
Certainly there has been enough cluelessness exhibited by Republicans this week as a group of Republican Congressmen decided that the American people don...
Weblog: Right Wing Nut House Tracked: Nov 13, 18:40
So it turns out that with about 2 minutes to go until sundown, I discovered I was short of dog food, and wouldn't have enough to get the big guy through Shabbat. It was suggested that I go get enough...
Weblog: The Pink Flamingo Bar Grill Tracked: Nov 14, 04:02
Carnival of Liberty XX
Welcome to Carnival of Liberty XX. Twenty weeks ago, on July 4, 2005, we inaugurated this experiment. Naturally the folks planning it, myself, Brad Warbiany, and Quincy, thought that holding the first Carnival of Liberty on July 4th was a...
Weblog: Eric's Grumbles Before The Grave Tracked: Nov 15, 09:38
From the "Religion of Peace" Files
IRIS believes that the riots in France are more than just riots. Evidence the "Paris Riots" Are Actually the "French Intifada" The Spain Herald: It?s Jihad, Idiot! by Pablo Molina Considering the left in general is immune not only to...
Weblog: Mark Nicodemo Tracked: Nov 16, 09:16
Powerline continues its excellent critique of Froomkin's (WaPo) 'misleading' attacks on George Bush, including Froomkin's response. Evidence the "Paris Riots" Are Actually the "French Intifada" by IRIS.org. Check it -- an encyclopedic list of resources on Paris Burning. Blackfive: Pushback-...
Weblog: Religion of Peace? One-Stop Shopping For War on Terror News Tracked: Nov 16, 09:37
Coming of Age
The New York Times, meanwhile, sees the story of integration of the French media as somehow more important than the three weeks worth of rioting. In fact, the article can't even come to say the r-word...
Weblog: A Blog For All Tracked: Nov 16, 17:37
Hizbut Tehrir Behind French Intifada
All indicators point to the involvement of some Pakistani, Algerian and Moroccan members of the London-based Hizbut Tehrir (HT) in the violence by sections of angry Muslim youth, which has rocked the suburbs of Paris and some other towns of...
Weblog: Religion of Peace? One-Stop Shopping For War on Terror News Tracked: Nov 22, 10:07
Local ADL No Better
Sometimes, when a national organization goes off the rails, there's hope that sanity will bubble up from the local chapters. If that's going to happen with the ADL, sadly, it's not going to start from Denver. The local ADL chapter...
Weblog: View From a Height Tracked: Nov 28, 21:11
The Children of Paris Have Been Born.
The lowdown on the Paris hoedown. Should keep you busy the whole afternoon .... http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/561-Evidence-the-Paris-Riots-Are-Actually-the-French-Intifada.html
Some of this is very disturbing: the sparing of cars with Islamic stickers, the burning of churches and synagogues (if it's being done in a targeted manner, as opposed to just random violence), and the use of religious slogans.
A lot of the rest, however, is very weak. "Baghdad" has pretty much become shorthand for a war-torn city, like "Beirut" was in the '80s. I don't see what that has to do with Islamist motivations. The business about jihadi websites isn't convincing either; of course they're trying to claim that these people as their own, but that alone doesn't make it so.
The critiques of the fatwa are also very weak: there's an idiot on the UIOF who blames Zionism. Sad, but it hardly means the whole effort is meaningless. And the second link is just silly: saying that criticizing the rioters for "blindly" striking at "innocents" means the fatwa isn't sincere? For crying out loud. Using emphatic language to reinforce your point is not using weasel words.
The problem here is that the French attitude towards Arabs and African immigrants is that they're imposters who don't belong (regardless of whether they're law-abiding or criminals). This phenomenon goes back well before the rise of Islamism in the 1980s. That, combined with the artifical job rationing produced by French labour laws, leads to a large group of angry young men who are unlikely to find anything useful to do with their lives. Is it that surprising that these ghettos are churning out violent thugs?
"Rioters Sparing Cars with Islamic Stickers
Rioters Sparing Muslim-Owned Businesses
Synagogues Set Ablaze
Churches Set Ablaze"
So basically, all you've got is that
1) they are mad about anti-Muslim discrimination;
2) they aren't stupid enough to target people (Muslims) unlikely to discriminate against Muslims;
3) and they aren't singling out synagogues for attacks, instead targeting any members of the French power structure who are likely to be responsible for the discrimination they suffer, whether Christian or Jewish.
Your case is pretty weak. You need to explain how these points are inconsistent with being protests of anti-Muslim discrimination.
Looks to me they fit that hypothesis better than the Intifada hypothesis.
Thanks for joining in here despite your disagreement.
The fact that you seem to agree with me that this is primarily Muslim rioting directed at non-Muslims means that you are far from the mainstream media's attempt to play those two facts down. We are therefore very close to agreement about the essential point.
On to where we disagree. If the fact that rioters are screaming the jihad battle cry ("Allahu Akhbar") does not impress you, then there isn't much else I can say.
As Muhammad Atta wrote in his final exhortation to himself, ?When the confrontation begins, strike like champions who do not want to go back to this world. Shout, ?Allahu Akbar,? because this strikes fear in the hearts of the non-believers.?
By your logic, 9/11 differed only in scope, not in character. It could be that Atta was full of rage about anti-Muslim discrimination and wanted to strike out at the non-Muslim power structure that oppressed them.
BTW what do you think motivated the depravity of the gang rape epidemic documented in this post? http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/542-Paris-Riots-Analysis-Muslim-Rioting-Spreads-to-20-Towns.html
Why is burning synagogues a protest at the "French power structure"? Patent appeasement and foolishness...how about
religious bigotry and anti-semiticism? ( rampant in the Arab world )
Wherever Islamists vent their hatred and violence around the world - Thailand, Indonesia, Burma, India, Russia, etc etc -
they claim "discrimination" as the reason. Never their own
failures and chauvinisms...Are Buddhists and Hindus and
Christians slaughtering each other anywhere you can think of?
Why not, do you think?
Any south east Asian immigrants out there burning cars and
crying "Allahu Akbar?" No? No Cambodians, Chinese, Indians,
Viet, Laotians? None at all? Why would that be? Er - perhaps they have better things to do? Like get an education, which is FREE in France?
It's funny, I am "white liberal" myself, but the moral idiocy of this same group is spellbinding.
Youths' poverty, despair fuel violent unrest in France
Islamic underclass vents frustration
By Colin Nickerson, Globe Staff | November 6, 2005
CLICHY-SOUS-BOIS, France -- Mahmoud Khabou, 20, the jobless son of Algerian immigrants, knows little of the world beyond the concrete housing projects that rise in bleak rows barely an hour's subway ride from the Eiffel Tower, Arc de Triomphe, and other grand monuments of Paris.
But he knows who his heroes are. ''Osama bin Laden and Rodney King," he said, referring to the Al Qaeda leader and the African-American whose videotaped beating by Los Angeles police in 1991 spawned massive racial riots.
''One because he gives pride back to the Muslims," the young man asserted as he and a trio of friends stood near the charred ruins of a carpet shop. ''The other because he was just a poor man, a 'nobody man' of color, but he caused a great city to burn."
This is a great collection and a noble effort, Barak, but I wonder how many minds it will change. The apologists will squirm out of it, no matter how much evidence you amass. They just don't want to change their beliefs.
Next tactic they'll use: "It's just like the reports from New Orleans; most of these stories are fakes and exaggerations." Just wait and see.
I know the liberal mind. Assymetrical skepticism all the way. They'll never believe.
Use your brain. If this were inspired or led by Islamists, then we'd have seen hundreds of attacks on jewish targets across France by now. Instead, after twelve days of riots by thousands of (primarily african, not arab) teenagers, we have one attack on one jewish target, while over 7,000 cars have been torched, most of them belonging to the.
This is a race riot. American and French rap music and posturing have far more influence over the course and direction of these events than any imam. Note that the imams have condemned the violence-- and yet it continues. So much for the fell hand of Islamism manipulating all behind the scenes.
You morons are doing to this story what the MSM morons did to the Katrina story: importing a predetermined meme of your choosing on a story that's obviously about something completely different.
"we have one attack on one jewish target" - Thibaud
Apparently you haven't bothered to do the research to get at the real facts.
There have been at least 2 synagogues and 2 churches burned. Beyond that French officials have specifically told Jewish leaders to shut up and that they better not dare to mention the harrassment or it will get worse. Those are just off the top of my head. I'm sure if I bothered to spend even ten minutes looking into it further that I'd find more despite the French government trying to gag the victims.
Perhaps you should invest those ten minutes before making yourself look uninformed next time.
Heh. Thibaud is actually the exact person I had in mind when I wrote that no leftie will ever be convinced!
He'd been posting all kinds of head-in-the-sand drivel over at Roger L. Simon's site, a performance that I watched with increasing amazement at his superhuman facility for intellectual evasion. I surfed over here and posted my comment in a state of despair. And now, here he is!
Thanks for your selective citations under the "evidence" section I checked a few for the full context. Here it is for the first one from the Boston Globe (at lest you were honest enough to post the link)
Youths' poverty, despair fuel violent unrest in France
Islamic underclass vents frustration
But he knows who *his heroes are. ''Osama bin Laden and Rodney King," he said*, referring to the Al Qaeda leader and the African-American whose videotaped beating by Los Angeles police in 1991 spawned massive racial riots.
So I guess they should add a new blog ?Evidence the Paris Riots are Really The South Central LA Riots". Hey by all reporters the rioters are more into hip hop gansta style clothes and rap music than wearing khaffiyehs and listening to traditional arab music.
i checked a few others they were similarly incomplete or out of context. Keep up the good work, and make it easy for me continue to post the links to your "evidence"
There is no deviousness here as you assert. I had earlier described this as "documentation of the Intifada-like elements of the French rioting," but based on your comment I have added another caveat:
"Note that these are not headlines, but are assertions culled from the articles"
There is no question that the MSM is trying to play down the Muslim elements of the rioting. That was the point of bringing quotes from the NY Times and the Washington Post. What I have done here is to gather them together into one place.
You are correct that I provide the link to the Osama quote so that one can read it in its full context. The full quote is a fabulous confirmation of my point, not a rebuttal. The interviewee is praising bin Laden as the "why" of what he is doing and Rodney King for the "how." See Daniel Pipes' article that I cited here for a full explanation of my opinions.
The bin Laden/King quote is a perfect illustration of this paragraph from Pipes' article:
"Another method of jihad: Indigenous Muslims of northwestern Europe have in the past year deployed three distinct forms of jihad: the crude variety deployed in Britain, killing random passengers moving around London; the targeted variety in the Netherlands, where individual political and cultural leaders are singled out, threatened, and in some cases attacked; and now the more diffuse violence in France, less specifically murderous but also politically less dismissible. Which of these or other methods will prove most efficacious is yet unclear, but the British variant is clearly counterproductive, so the Dutch and French strategies probably will recur."
So you would acknowledge items 1, both the #1 you took it down after i pointed out the inaccuracy and #7 (still up) are cut and paste and the headlines have nothing to do with the headline or analysis in the article. I won't waste my time checking any more. Then the "mainstream "reporters from any news organization (pick your poison lat wsj(news) fox news (news), ap, reutrers, agence french post, cnn, intl herald tribune, bbc , financial times on the scene are missing the "real story"
Don't you think any of these reporters would find themselves with the scoop of the year if they could find real substance to your version of the "real story" as seen from israel.
then you bring an opinion piece written from Philadelphia from Daniel Pipes, whose strong negative views of arab politics and society are well known as "evidence" to disprove the "msm" reporters who speak french and are in the midst of the riots everyday.
You also were good enough to print a piece by Tony Blankley fresh upon returning from his trip to Russia. Blankley is an author of a book about Islam's threat to Europe that asserts islamic extremism in europe today = Nazism in the 1940s. As I would think you know by 1941 Hiler and the axis controlled virtually all of continental europe and bombarding London massively on a daily basis. So much for his skills of analysis imo.
Would anyone that knows anything about these guys expect them to come to any other conclusions based on their "analysis" from a desk 6000 miles away ?
your methodology is so pathetic i won't waste my time.
one more from your "evidence" (even from the same Boston Globe article)
"French Newspapers Speculate al Qaeda Involved in Orchestration"
the headline from the article is in my above entry
the full quote appearing which begins in the third to last paragraph of the article is
?French newspapers have carried speculative reports that ''hidden hands" -- meaning Islamic radical groups such as Al Qaeda -- are orchestrating the violence. Inhabitants of Clichy-sous-Bois scoffed at the suggestion.
''There's no hidden hand -- very ridiculous! -- just the fully visible discrimination that Muslims face everyday," said Zoubidia, 29, as she nervously led her two small boys past cordons of riot police guarding a fire station. She declined to give her last name.
''Just allow us the dignity of good jobs and a chance to make better lives," she said. ''Then the French will have nothing to fear from 'dangerous Muslims.' "?
And somehow you forgot to cite this earlier IN THE SAME ARTICLE
?French officials, however, have mostly blamed the violence of recent days on drug dealers, street gangs, and -- in Interior Minster Sarkozy's controversial characterization -- ''scum."
Thanks for providing the link to make it easy to check your evidence.
Yes you?re right this must be the only collection of its kind. And good thing there are blogs, if you worked for a real publication you would be fired in a day.
A complete response to your points can be found in reply to your previous post.
There is no question that I am quoting "out of context" if by "context" you mean "opinion." What I have done is collect a number of facts from different stories to counteract the opinions that you correctly identified from this Boston Globe article. There is no question that the opinion of this Boston Globe reporter, as well as the NY Times and Wash. Post stories I cited, is that the Muslim character of the rioting is either nonexistent or insignificant.
The "Islamist Web Site #2," for example, came from the NY Times story that I cited saying "the violence in France has not taken on religious overtones".
Almost no MSM stories mention, for example, both the synagogue and church burnings together because, in my opinion, that might lead one to believe there are religious overtones to these riots. Among the ones that mention the church arsons, very few mention synagogues. Of the ones that mention synagogues, a number make the mistake that there was only one.
For example, the article I used as evidence of the church burnings does not mention synagogues. Does that mean I have done something wrong by being one of the few places where you can see both facts recorded correctly in one place?
"Thanks for your selective citations under the "evidence" section I checked a few for the full context. Here it is for the first one from the Boston Globe (at lest you were honest enough to post the link)" LaLarry
When excerpts are supplied, with the links, it is in fact a transparent and honest way to present the evidence - as evidence. In presenting evidence (i.e., pieces of the puzzle), it's not at all the same thing as claiming conclusions about the entire situation in France, not as regards the short-term implications of this situation nor as regards the mid-term to longer-term implications of this situation.
By contrast Larry, you seem to be ascribing to yourself some type of probative diligence by simply following the link which was supplied to you in the first place. It's as if someone gives you a C-note, a hundred dollar bill, for doing absolutely nothing, and you turn around and falsely take credit for earning the money and then, additionally, accuse your benefactor for failing to give you even more.
Presenting pieces of the puzzle, pieces of the overall situation which have not been otherwise reported or emphasized by other outlets, is not at all the same thing as insisting upon definitive conclusions. Perhaps you understood this and perhaps that's why you resorted to ad hominem inferences instead of more simply keeping to the subject of the evidence per se.
I might have chosen a different title, but since you placed both "Paris riots" and "French intifada" within quotes, therein denoting a less than literal interpretation, I'm not sure it matters in the least. At least that's how I took it. This isn't a binary choice, an either/or. I even agree with LaLarry, thibaud, et al. at the level of 75%+, but in part because I'm considering other factors, including the mid-term to longer-term ramifications, I'm holding back on any definitive conclusions for the time being.
(And far from "nonsense" Larry, that is precisely the point.)
Barak, ignore "la la rry" He is not interested in debating but playing the Lefty game of shouting, "I smarter than you! I more moral than you! Me smart you moron! I can read big words!", etc and so on.
I do not see how acknowledging the Islamic component of these riots means that the rioters are not also angry about their low economic and social status. And if the latter is true that does not mean the former is therefore non-existent. The Islamic culture of these places was acknowledged long before these riots occurred and to claim there is no religious/cultural motivation behind them is silly. Frankly what I have read in many places indicates to me that the Islamic religious/cultural identity and feeling socially/economicly/politically oppressed dovetail. Nations where Islam predominants are all "Third World" at best. Islamic leaders and followers constantly complain that Islam is oppressed, under threat, under attack, disrepected, etc. If Islam's innate superiority is not consistantly acknowledged, if there is the slightest insult against Islam, then the threats start and are sometimes followed by action. Would any modern "artist" present at same "art" display a "Piss Mohammed"? And if they did would that person not soon be in fear for life and limb? I note those covering France usually ignore the riots in Demmark over some book or newspaper having a visual representation of the Prophet Mohammed by the same "disaffected (Muslim) youth" types seen in France.
Therefore there is a Isalm/Muslim fed anger to the French riots and a social/economic/political/ fed anger. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Very well said. I never really replied to this point, basically letting Daniel Pipes make it for me.
Yes, there can be two components as you say (really there are obviously more like any complex phenomenon). The question is what's relevant? What's dominant? The hard-core Islamist component has, in my estimation driven the society-hating, but-not-so-committedly Muslim element.
This is generally the goal of Islamists, which is why they focus on prisons. That is where the "haters" (their prime recruits) can be found.
nonsense i try to use your site for information but each time i follow a link i find the most blatant selective citation of sources that it is laughable. Here's another: the "source article" for the churches attacked evidence included this:
"France's biggest Muslim fundamentalist organization, the Union for Islamic Organizations of France, issued a fatwa, or religious decree. It forbade all those "who seek divine grace from taking part in any action that blindly strikes private or public property or can harm others"
so in following your sources to find evidence the paris riots are actually the french intifada i seem to always find evidence that a very strong case aginst that thesis could be made. But that's called objective weighing of evidence, not prejudgement and polemics, something i learned in my PhD studies in political science and ME studies including a year studying at the Hebrew Univ of Jerusalem. Your credentials ?
so let's see;
the msm misses the story
but when a stray portion of one of their articles supports your thesis you cite it,
even when the rest of the article and the reporter's conclusion argues against ur thesis
and then you dismiss the rest of the article as unreliable msm stuff.
think an editor at the hated msm would accept this methodology ?
By the way, I agree with those who claim economic influences, which is why I posted this story "Paris' Harvest of Socialism, by Dick Morris" (http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/577-Paris-Harvest-of-Socialism.html)
My comments, however, point out where I disagree:
"Dick Morris is right-the inherent flaws of socialism explain the resentment and perhaps, even anger that Muslim immigrants feel when decent economic opportunities are largely unavailable. It does not explain the hatred, however, or how they were mobilized to pull off thousands of car arsons in a few nights. It also does not explain why billions have suffered worse conditions without mass violence."
Larry was apparently a hit-and run attacker. He continued to post after I rebutted his points without every responding. Here, for example, he falsely accused me of "the #1 you took it down after i pointed out the inaccuracy" without responding when I challenged him.
It appears that there is a debate over which translation is preferable, but without you this second possible reading would not have been clear. Obviously it is charged with significance. I will stick with my translation because it is more widely recognized while acknowledging that yours may be technically better.
I don't know what to say Barak ..... I just tossed it off the top of my head. After giving your French Riot compendium a quick perusal. And realizing how perfectly formed it was .... without so much as clicking on, or reading a single link.
And realizing that the b-sphere had become something. Quite something indeed.
This is an excellent round-up of sources. I just had one quibble: I read Artuz Sheva's reference to "four synagogues and Jewish schools" to mean synagogues and schoos for a total of 4 buildings, not 4 synagogues plus schools. Again, Yasher Koach.
Barak, thanks for the kind words. I agree that Islamists see these "Disaffected Youths" as foot soldier recruits for their purposes. I would think a key line of this recruitment would be to remind these thugs that they are all at heart Muslims and that therein lies redemption AND the path to power, money and status.
Who needs a college degree when you can be an Islamist soldier and/or enforcer? I may be wrong, I do not know the demographics, but I am reminded of Iran's Revolutionary Guards.
Interesting that you should post the comment that only ignorant foreign journalists could believe this is an "intifada" just after I disproved what you said by posting an article from the editor of 'Valeurs Actuelles', a Paris-based journal. He describes the intifada pretty much as I have.
By the way, do you dispute any of the facts I have posted here?
It is also interesting that you are not my first critic from France who spoke of desire to "fire me." It is interesting that the response of silencing one's intellectual opponents is so reflexive for those on the political left.
I don't understand everything you say because my english vocabulary is far from being perfect.
And i won't read everything you wrote to "prove" that this is an intifada because it would take days and days and days to translate everything.
But I know I'm right. These riots have really nothing to deal with being muslim or catholic or jewish or anything else. It's just people who are fed up to no be considered as french whereas they were born here and have the french nationality.
Some says they participated to the riots because a teargas grenade was throw in a mosque while there were hundreds of people praying inside. And this kind of teargas grenade is in the police equipment. So people think it's the police who throwed it. That's the only things that have a link to religion. What would you say if you lived in France and a teargas grenade was throw in a protestant church on a sunday morning ?
This is just one of the exemples of how imigrants and their children and grand children are treated. And they're not only muslims.
Can you give me the link for this french article because I don't find it on the website of valeurs actuelles.
If you come here you will see your journalists are wrong. Go in the banlieues and see it with your own eyes ! Here people are laughing when they see how american medias treat this information, escpecially Fow News. And CNN, there are not even able to place the towns correctly on a map (they placed Toulouse in the noth-east instead of south west...), so how could they give you good quality information ?
The riots you had in Los Angeles in the 90's were worse than the riots here. It's not a civil war, it's not an intifada. It's just riots.
And i would like to say that there were no synagogue burnt during the riots. And I think there is not jewish schools and jewish sport clubs in France. Here when we build schools or sport club it's for every body, not only for a categorie of people. Private schools used to be catholic schools but it was a very long time ago, now people from every religion can go in this schools. So I would really like to know where you found that !
"I'm french and I know much more than you on the riots." Sabrina
That's not at all clear. Have stated my position further up the thread, but some among the French and Europe more generally might read "Anti-Semitism and Ethnicity in Europe," a solid background to the current topic, by J. Rosenthal in the Oct., 2003 issue of Policy Review, online:
First one, ?The French intifada? in the Jerusalem Post. Yes, there are antisemist people in France. If you didn?t know it, antisemitism is a form of racism. For that, blame the extreme right, not muslims. People from Maghreb are victim of racism as jewish are. Yes, we have problem to correctly integrate immigrants. All immigrants, muslims and non muslim. Allah Wakbar (I don?t know the orthograph) is not an ?Islamic war cry?, it?s something people say when they pray, a bit like we say ?amen?. A non muslim was beaten to death. Yes that?s right, but he wasn?t beaten to death because he wasn?t muslim but because he was trying to stop a fire. And we don?t have ?islamist mafia type thugs? in France.
Second one ?Europe?s time bomb? in News week. Where do you find the proof that riots are an intifada. Quote : ?In hundreds of French housing projects and ghettos populated by mostly Muslim Arab and African immigrants and their French children and grandchildren, "normal" has been for years a sort of chronic intifada, even if it was invisible to most of France and the rest of the world.?. Yes, there are cars burning sometimes (not hundred of cars every night, the man who said the situation was back to the normal exagerated very much!). But it?s just a few young delinquent who give a bad reputation of the projects. Some are muslim, some are not, it?s not a matter of religion, they are just young who do stupid things (like many young people in many country).
Third one. On TF1.fr.Well, 1 church partially burned, I missed this one. It took place very far from Paris. In the suburban that are not in Paris, there much less muslims than in Paris subruban. There is no proof that this burn have a link with the riots, they say in this article that there were no violence before that, except a few garbages burned, like in many towns every days. And nobody knows who light the fire, so how can you say it?s some extremists muslims ? The rioters (if this word exist) principally burned public place and cars, not religious places.
Fourth one. On Lost Bugie Blog. Is it a joke ? This person really informed itself watching fox news ? This channel just hates every body who is not american, white, protestant and republican.
Fifth one. ?French riots fan anti-Semitism? in Arutz Sheva. Quote : ?Walter H," who lives in France, stated that the violence against Jews has been country-wide. "In Lyon, a car was rammed into a synagogue and set on fire. In
Montpellier, the Jewish religious center was firebombed [as] were synagogues in Strasbourg and Marseilles [and] a Jewish school in Creteil," he wrote in an e-mail..
He also related that a Jewish sports club in Toulouse was attacked with Molotov cocktails and that vandals painted the words "Dirty Jew" on a statute of Alfred Dreyfus in Paris. He added, "15 men beat up members of a Jewish football team with sticks" in Bondy.?
Does he hide his last name because he knows he lies ? Like I said, there are no schools or sport clubs or anything else build just for jewish in france. And riots didn?t even came to Marseille.
Here is the truth :? Most Jewish media have reported that Jewish leaders in France consider the recent riots a general expression of anger by North African immigrant communities against the government and society in general and not against Jews in particular.
Manek Weintraub, a leader in the Representative Council of the Jewish Institutions of France (CRIF) told the British website TotallyJewish.com, "So far nothing has happened. There was a Molotov cocktail that seems to have been hurled at a small synagogue but nobody really knows about it. It [the riots] will concern the public authorities but Jews are largely absent from the story, which is welcome. ?
Sixth one. French Intifadeh in the Calgary sun. One other journalist who don?t deserve to be called a journalist. Did he come here to write his article ? Where do he show a link between the riots and the religion ? There 5 millions muslims in France, not 5 millions of terrorists. Stop being so paranoiac, it?s frightening !
Seventh one. On Debka file. Well, first there is no gang in France. It?s France, not USA. The Ramadan intifada. What?s that ? Do you know what the Ramadan is ?
I say it another time, yes there are muslims in France, and particulary in projects, but there is also whites, African, Italian Portuguese, east European, Asians, ? in France and particulary in projects.
Heighth one. Time on line. No, islamist don?t fostered the riots. The riots have nothing to deal with religion. How many time I must say it before you understand ? I start being boring, saying always the same things.
I stop here because I suppose all articles says the same things.
If you really want to know what happened here, come here, come in the projects. It?s less dangerous to come alone at night in the French projects during the riots than in the American ghettos.
I know many people who live in the projects in Paris and in other towns, my own grand parents live in a project in the west of France. I know why they are angry, I know why they do that, and I understand them. I know it?s not the good way to express it, but what they ask is legitimate.
I just wanted you to know the truth. But if you prefer to stay in your ignorance it?s your problem, not mine.
Thank you for taking the time to look over some of the articles I posted. I know this is difficult for you to do in English.
You mention "my ignorance," but actually it is you who is mistaken on many things. I will point out a few obvious ones for starters before responding to the bulk of your criticisms.
1. You wrote "there are no schools or sport clubs or anything else build just for jewish in france."
Here are 50,000 Web pages having to do with Jewish schools in France: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-29,GGLD:en&q=%22Jewish+school%22+France
A decent number of them have to do with anti-Semitic attacks.
2. You continued "And riots didn't even come to Marseille."
Here are 1,200 results of a Google News search on "Marseille riots."
3. You wrote: "there were no churches or synagogues burned. It's just a lie."
Actually, there were reports of 3 churches burned, 3 synagogues and 3 other Jewish buildings.
The churches were burned in northern Lens and southern Sete (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051107/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting_115;_ylt=ArTH2yYEPz7rhS69GII734bgelIB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl) as well as Romans/Drome (http://news.tf1.fr/news/france/0,,3263417,00.html).
The Jewish buildings that suffered fire-related attacks were:
Montpellier: Jewish religious center
Creteil: Jewish school
Toulouse: Jewish sports club
Since you accused the report on Israel National News of "lying," here is another news source: ("Arsonists threw at least two Molotov cocktails at synagogues in Pierrefitte-sur-Seine and Garges"-http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3165579,00.html). It is not difficult to locate others.
Three strong accusations of "ignorance" and "lies" above and three proofs that they are true. I would be very interested in seeing how you respond before dealing with the rest of your comments.
By the way, can you find a single quote from Fox News to back up your comment that Fox News "just hates every body who is not american, white, protestant and republican"?
No, there was not riots in Marseille (many people are surprised of that because it is often said to be a "hot" town), there some cars burn, but not more than usually.
The schools you talk about, every body can go in. It's not jewish schools. In France, if you refuse a pupils in a school because of his religion you will have big problems with justice. They teach the jewish religion to the pupils but you can go there if you are from another religion, you don't have to go to the religion courses.
I still tell you those journalists are liars or incompetent.
The problem of american and israelian is the they see terrorist everywhere. And when somebody say "I'm muslim", they think "heeeeeeeeeeeeeeelp it's a terrorist !!!!!!!!!!!!!!".
They started theory of intifada and muslim riots because the majoritary religion in projects is islam (many people come from the Maghreb and other african country with a majority of muslims).
They have a different point of view. They see them as muslim first, here we talk about them mentioning the nationality of their parents or grand parents first.
In the riots there is youngs from every origins. Not only from Tunisia, Algeria, Marrocco and african country where islam is the first religion.
Nobody did a poll and ask the rioters what is your religion, but you can be sure there is also catholic people in the rioters. And maybe jewish too. I don't know how many jewish their is in France and in the projects. But they are victim of racism like arabs are, like blacks are, like asians are, like portuguese are, etc. They have the same problems with discrimination. Jewish and muslims ask for the same things.
When Jewish are victim of antisemitism, sometimes it's from muslims, but it's also from extreme right groups. All muslims are not antisemit, but extreme right groups are all antisemit.
Did you know that Mohammed V (who was the king of Marrocco) refused to recognize and to obei to the regime of Vichy during the 2nd world war (the dictatorship installed by P?tain in the half of France territory, who collaborated with Nazis) ?
Fow News is well known for that and especially for their hate against french (since we said no for the Irak war). I have no quote to show you because we don't recieve it here. I saw some extracts. And I wouldn't watch it if I could, it's like read only tabloids and then pretend to be good informed. They don't inform their audience, they tell them what they want to hear. For them, the riots are a good occasion to critisize us. In USA I think they were the first to talk about "muslim" riots.
But the theory of muslim riots is not the most ridiculous one. Here some people said it's because of polygamy, because they have so much chilldren that they can't look after them correctly.
Seriously, you can believe me. Rioters are not trying to convert all France to Islam or to destroy the country. They want to be respected. They want to be considered as french because they were born here and have a french identity card. They want to have competent teachers in schools instead of new teachers who have no authority at all. They want to be equal to other people when they are searching for a flat or for a job. They are tired of boss who say no just because of their color or their name. They are tired of cops who treat them with no respect just because they live in the projects, during the riots 4 or 6 cops were arrested because they beated a young man, a man filmed other cops firing some people who did nothing with flashball (a ridiculous gun that throw balls, but when you are close to it, it really hurts bad), they just run away when they saw the camera, I even heard a old white woman say she is afraid of police !.
Projects are about to explose since years and years. Sarkozy provocated them, it's like he gave them something to light the fires and now he's happy, he got what he wanted, he's on TV every day and everybody talk about him, even abroad everybody heard his name.
In 2007 it will be the presidential elections here. And Sarkozy is a very (too much ?) ambitious and premature man : he is in campaign since several months. If the riots were islamists riots, you can be sure he would be saying it in every TV programm, in every interview, to every people he see. And he would be presenting himself as the man who will save France from terrorists.